Comments on: 'Right to Work' is no longer a whisper http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/ Tue, 06 Sep 2011 18:31:23 +0000 hourly 1 By: pfafftime http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-970 pfafftime Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:28:34 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-970 Right to work does not mean non-union. Unions don't like RTW because it means that employees within the unit don't have to pay union dues even though by law they are entitled to the same benefits as the dues paying membership. The nature of people being what it is, not many people would opt to pay dues if they were not required to. Right to work does not mean non-union. Unions don’t like RTW because it means that employees within the unit don’t have to pay union dues even though by law they are entitled to the same benefits as the dues paying membership. The nature of people being what it is, not many people would opt to pay dues if they were not required to.

]]> By: Steve http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-968 Steve Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:41:58 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-968 Thanks David, I also believe there are a lot of 'features' about unions that are not so good. Like for instance, with respect to some businesses, they've had to completely eat huge pay decreases, huge benefit decreases etc, as a group. They also tend to keep really bad employees when a non-union workplace would have "off'd" them long ago. I know a woman that went back to school to finish her teaching degree in her 40s, and the woman that she interned with, was in her 70s, and wouldnt retire. And she was horrible. teaching 2nd and 3rd graders, the old woman had been making them cry, treated them like dirt, and generally acting like a dictator to these young children, had literally half the parents that ever had kids going to that school specifically request not to let that woman come near them..... yet no one, not even the principle could get rid of this terrible person. And the woman interning was really good with the kids and ended up often consoling them from her "boss's" meanness. She wasnt able to be hired except as a beloved substitute due to her age, even though well qualified in recent teaching degree standards. Also, everyone has the image of a guy sitting at a machine pushing a button for $25/hour. Which may happen sometimes, but the issue is that any job like that is not going to be acceptable by everyone else, either due to jealousy, or anger about waste. The problem tends to be that Republicons and their support groups tend to be Big rich, Predatory businesses that sometimes are nice to employees, and sometimes are not, they hold all the power, and they wield it like Dictators. Workers generally have no rights, and no way to recoup being Wronged by a bad boss or company. And companies of all types like it that way. They want and crave and use that power. Now in the example of Automotive union workers, it appears that many of them are ending up taking paycuts anyway, and are about the same wages and benefits as their non-union run foriegn auto workers. So is there any benefit to the big 3 at this point to actually get rid of the unions here anymore? There might be now only for the workers so they dont have to pay dues anymore. I dont have details to say though. I think we run other risks in the future though as well. what happens if we outlaw unions and the GOP successfully union-busts all of michigan? What is the result of companies that are doing "ok" and making shareholder profits that suddenly can drop wages or fire experienced employees for newbies at will? If wages for manual labor jobs drop like a stone, that will ripple all throughout michigan and around us, in all manual labor jobs, lowering wages to minimum wage or just over by a few cents because there will still be a Huge base of Michigan workers that cannot retire, that have no more than a highschool diploma or less, that need work with no place to earn more which puts wage pressures on any company. - then college educated persons will loudly proclaim victory in that they are now guaranteed to always make more than anyone with less education and they'll be happy, but then we have a quarter of our adult and family populations earning poverty wages for manual labor jobs. This will definitely make more profits for companies here in michigan that rely on manual laborers. However, where will that money go? Will it go to out of state investors? shareholders? owners? Will it go to extremely wealthy CEO's and Top corporate officers? Will it really go into any kind of infrstructure investment or capital purchases? Well the likely scenario is that some will go to investments, and most will go to the top officers in bonuses and to shareholders or owernship. The problem then is that those millions of dollars more that manual laborers were making USED to be spent directly back into the local michigan economy wherever those people were employed, restaurants, local shopping centers, auto dealerships, furniture stores etc. And once those salaries either drop or move to China, they are gone. Electrolux decided that Mexican salaries are more of a bonus for them than 86 million in tax breaks Granholm offered. Greenville got pummeled. The whole community, not just former Elec employees. Are we somehow going to get everyone in the state to suddenly be able to afford a college degree or specialized training in services? Thats REALLY expensive since College costs seem to outdistance Inflation year after year. - not sure why since their customers mostly cant afford college out of their savings. With budget concerns constantly on schools, what do we do with all the instructors once the Teachers union is busted? Do they just keep taking it on the chin until the best ones decide they can make a whole lot more money with less attacks on them in the private sector no longer teaching? Thanks David,
I also believe there are a lot of ‘features’ about unions that are not so good.
Like for instance, with respect to some businesses, they’ve had to completely eat huge pay decreases, huge benefit decreases etc, as a group.
They also tend to keep really bad employees when a non-union workplace would have “off’d” them long ago.
I know a woman that went back to school to finish her teaching degree in her 40s, and the woman that she interned with, was in her 70s, and wouldnt retire. And she was horrible. teaching 2nd and 3rd graders, the old woman had been making them cry, treated them like dirt, and generally acting like a dictator to these young children, had literally half the parents that ever had kids going to that school specifically request not to let that woman come near them….. yet no one, not even the principle could get rid of this terrible person. And the woman interning was really good with the kids and ended up often consoling them from her “boss’s” meanness. She wasnt able to be hired except as a beloved substitute due to her age, even though well qualified in recent teaching degree standards.

Also, everyone has the image of a guy sitting at a machine pushing a button for $25/hour.

Which may happen sometimes, but the issue is that any job like that is not going to be acceptable by everyone else, either due to jealousy, or anger about waste.

The problem tends to be that Republicons and their support groups tend to be Big rich, Predatory businesses that sometimes are nice to employees, and sometimes are not, they hold all the power, and they wield it like Dictators. Workers generally have no rights, and no way to recoup being Wronged by a bad boss or company. And companies of all types like it that way. They want and crave and use that power.

Now in the example of Automotive union workers, it appears that many of them are ending up taking paycuts anyway, and are about the same wages and benefits as their non-union run foriegn auto workers.
So is there any benefit to the big 3 at this point to actually get rid of the unions here anymore?
There might be now only for the workers so they dont have to pay dues anymore.
I dont have details to say though.

I think we run other risks in the future though as well.
what happens if we outlaw unions and the GOP successfully union-busts all of michigan?
What is the result of companies that are doing “ok” and making shareholder profits that suddenly can drop wages or fire experienced employees for newbies at will?

If wages for manual labor jobs drop like a stone, that will ripple all throughout michigan and around us, in all manual labor jobs, lowering wages to minimum wage or just over by a few cents because there will still be a Huge base of Michigan workers that cannot retire, that have no more than a highschool diploma or less, that need work with no place to earn more which puts wage pressures on any company.

- then college educated persons will loudly proclaim victory in that they are now guaranteed to always make more than anyone with less education and they’ll be happy, but then we have a quarter of our adult and family populations earning poverty wages for manual labor jobs.

This will definitely make more profits for companies here in michigan that rely on manual laborers. However, where will that money go?
Will it go to out of state investors? shareholders? owners? Will it go to extremely wealthy CEO’s and Top corporate officers?
Will it really go into any kind of infrstructure investment or capital purchases?
Well the likely scenario is that some will go to investments, and most will go to the top officers in bonuses and to shareholders or owernship.
The problem then is that those millions of dollars more that manual laborers were making USED to be spent directly back into the local michigan economy wherever those people were employed, restaurants, local shopping centers, auto dealerships, furniture stores etc.
And once those salaries either drop or move to China, they are gone.
Electrolux decided that Mexican salaries are more of a bonus for them than 86 million in tax breaks Granholm offered.
Greenville got pummeled. The whole community, not just former Elec employees.

Are we somehow going to get everyone in the state to suddenly be able to afford a college degree or specialized training in services?
Thats REALLY expensive since College costs seem to outdistance Inflation year after year. – not sure why since their customers mostly cant afford college out of their savings.

With budget concerns constantly on schools, what do we do with all the instructors once the Teachers union is busted?
Do they just keep taking it on the chin until the best ones decide they can make a whole lot more money with less attacks on them in the private sector no longer teaching?

]]> By: marcia curran http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-969 marcia curran Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:13:07 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-969 I don't see how you can call "right to work" a fresh idea!! It is from the 19th century but just with a different name. Shame on you. I am disappointed that your ideas are not more progressive. I don’t see how you can call “right to work” a fresh idea!! It is from the 19th century but just with a different name. Shame on you. I am disappointed that your ideas are not more progressive.

]]> By: David http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-967 David Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:50:03 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-967 Hey Steve, very well said! The only problem is that the Republicans will never understand how good unions are for all of us. If you ask me, anyone that WORKS for a living should support unions, but as you can see by others comments here, jealousy and ignorance prevent them from doing so. How, for example, would a "non-union, non-paid-for-life" person benefit from a right-to-work state, unless of course, they owned a company that would benefit by such a demoralizing law. If a person doesn't have as good insurance as an autoworker even though that person is in a "professional" job, or maybe has a college education... who's fault is that! Some would actually say it's the autoworkers fault that they get better benefits, as-if to say "that's not fair". But, that's just jealousy, don't you think? My thought is; Why Shouldn't All Companies Pay The Same Relative Benefits That Our Unionized Auto Companies Pay. And, I mean that at the national level, too. Why not? Hey Steve, very well said! The only problem is that the Republicans will never understand how good unions are for all of us. If you ask me, anyone that WORKS for a living should support unions, but as you can see by others comments here, jealousy and ignorance prevent them from doing so. How, for example, would a “non-union, non-paid-for-life” person benefit from a right-to-work state, unless of course, they owned a company that would benefit by such a demoralizing law. If a person doesn’t have as good insurance as an autoworker even though that person is in a “professional” job, or maybe has a college education… who’s fault is that! Some would actually say it’s the autoworkers fault that they get better benefits, as-if to say “that’s not fair”. But, that’s just jealousy, don’t you think? My thought is; Why Shouldn’t All Companies Pay The Same Relative Benefits That Our Unionized Auto Companies Pay. And, I mean that at the national level, too. Why not?

]]> By: Steve http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-966 Steve Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:56:42 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-966 I have all the right to work in Michigan that could ever ask for. I've never been turned down for a job at any place in Michigan that had anything to do with unions or being a union state or whatever with unions. The company im with now is fine, doesnt need unions and isnt a union industry. However, there are industry (mostly manual labor jobs) that unions help with. I think the problem here is that most of the people that are "Anti Union" have NO idea what its like to work at a manual labor job, that takes some learned skills, hard work and get just PUmmeled and Hammered for pay, and have NO other options. I would just LOOOOVE to put the haves, into the place of the Have-nots and see how they like being smashed in the face everyday by unfair managers, unfair, sexist, biased, bigoted, racist formen and watch them get away with it because of course, the companies have them over a barrel. ["Companies don't want to get out of paying fair wages," Klohs said] This statement is true for most businesses today and most all businesses that require professionals and educated individuals to do complex jobs. However, that statement is Bull__it when it comes to production companies that are looking to squeeze every penny out of their employees and if they could get away with it, would pay less than minimum wage and no overtime. I've seen em try it. They use every trick in the book to get rid of higher paid skilled, experienced manual labor employees, and they still find it cheaper to hire terrible employees with bad work histories, drug problems, violent histories, foul mouths, for like $6/hr. with no benefits. Its sad. I do know that if it wasnt for UAW, my uncle who came home from Korea after serving in the USMC 1st division wounded and field promoted in combat, would have been floundering around with no insurance, terrible pay, and bad treatment trying to find a job and some respect from the Big Iron Boot of Uncaring, despotic Corporate powers. But he got a good UAW job in a 2nd tier supplier with insurance for him and my aunt, and he was one of the best repairmen they ever had, and he was able to retire from there after 30 yrs on the job. Had it not been for the union, he'd have had no job security, no good benefits, and no retirement. You people tell me when you pass a law guaranteeing that all Corporations and Businesses in the state will act like good Christians and treat employees with respect and good pay for good work, then theres no reason to ever have a union again for any trade or industry. But right now i can name 3 westmichigan NON UNION shops paying adults with families $8/hr to work in a sweatshop. YOU tell me where in Michigan $16,000 a year is GOOD wages and where someone can survive with kids on that? I have all the right to work in Michigan that could ever ask for.
I’ve never been turned down for a job at any place in Michigan that had anything to do with unions or being a union state or whatever with unions.

The company im with now is fine, doesnt need unions and isnt a union industry.

However, there are industry (mostly manual labor jobs) that unions help with.

I think the problem here is that most of the people that are “Anti Union” have NO idea what its like to work at a manual labor job, that takes some learned skills, hard work and get just PUmmeled and Hammered for pay, and have NO other options.

I would just LOOOOVE to put the haves, into the place of the Have-nots and see how they like being smashed in the face everyday by unfair managers, unfair, sexist, biased, bigoted, racist formen and watch them get away with it because of course, the companies have them over a barrel.

["Companies don't want to get out of paying fair wages," Klohs said]
This statement is true for most businesses today and most all businesses that require professionals and educated individuals to do complex jobs.
However, that statement is Bull__it when it comes to production companies that are looking to squeeze every penny out of their employees and if they could get away with it, would pay less than minimum wage and no overtime.

I’ve seen em try it. They use every trick in the book to get rid of higher paid skilled, experienced manual labor employees, and they still find it cheaper to hire terrible employees with bad work histories, drug problems, violent histories, foul mouths, for like $6/hr. with no benefits.
Its sad.

I do know that if it wasnt for UAW, my uncle who came home from Korea after serving in the USMC 1st division wounded and field promoted in combat, would have been floundering around with no insurance, terrible pay, and bad treatment trying to find a job and some respect from the Big Iron Boot of Uncaring, despotic Corporate powers. But he got a good UAW job in a 2nd tier supplier with insurance for him and my aunt, and he was one of the best repairmen they ever had, and he was able to retire from there after 30 yrs on the job.
Had it not been for the union, he’d have had no job security, no good benefits, and no retirement.

You people tell me when you pass a law guaranteeing that all Corporations and Businesses in the state will act like good Christians and treat employees with respect and good pay for good work, then theres no reason to ever have a union again for any trade or industry.
But right now i can name 3 westmichigan NON UNION shops paying adults with families $8/hr to work in a sweatshop.
YOU tell me where in Michigan $16,000 a year is GOOD wages and where someone can survive with kids on that?

]]> By: TeresaE http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/right-to-work-is-no-longer-a-whisper/comment-page-1/#comment-965 TeresaE Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:34:53 +0000 http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/blog/?p=1015#comment-965 Sadly, this is just one small issue in the quagmire that is doing business in Michigan. The heavily unionized government, Big 3 and the fact that the non-union MAJORITY of our citizens has condoned the ridiculous nature of doing business (I guess we all just hope to win the lottery by landing such a cushy job--guess what that will NEVER happen!) in Michigan has put us in such a spot that I truly doubt change CAN occur here. Our taxes and regulations are daunting, and it only takes one drive down a road to see that higher taxes does NOT equate to better living. We continue to incarcerate and prosecute EVERYONE for EVERYTHING, to satisfy the judicial, police and support unions. This state, and now this country, better wake up to the fact that taxes and regulations are killing us and that our children will be lucky to ever find a job to support their families. Right to work, is way past due. Us non-union, non-paid for life citizens better stand up--soon. Sadly, this is just one small issue in the quagmire that is doing business in Michigan.

The heavily unionized government, Big 3 and the fact that the non-union MAJORITY of our citizens has condoned the ridiculous nature of doing business (I guess we all just hope to win the lottery by landing such a cushy job–guess what that will NEVER happen!) in Michigan has put us in such a spot that I truly doubt change CAN occur here.

Our taxes and regulations are daunting, and it only takes one drive down a road to see that higher taxes does NOT equate to better living.

We continue to incarcerate and prosecute EVERYONE for EVERYTHING, to satisfy the judicial, police and support unions.

This state, and now this country, better wake up to the fact that taxes and regulations are killing us and that our children will be lucky to ever find a job to support their families.

Right to work, is way past due. Us non-union, non-paid for life citizens better stand up–soon.

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