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Discussion Archive: Page 1
By The Center for Michigan - February 9, 2007
In February of 2007, we asked "How do we best transform the size and role of government, and how best to pay for it?" We received some great answers and didn't want to lose all the ideas generated when we moved into our new web site.
We've archived the posts here and we ask you to respond with your thoughts on this page.
Administrator Account
Posts:5 |
| 02/09/2007 10:56 AM |
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| How do we best transform the size and role of government, and how best to pay for it? |
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Todd Liedeke (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:07 AM |
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| Michigan is in a budget crisis; subsequently all of its residents will be impacted by that crisis. Given this fact, all of Michigan's residents should contribute to the solution.Adjusting the sales tax to apply to all goods and services sold is a fair and reasonable method to achieve additional revenue for the state. All of us purchase and consume food and beverage on a daily basis. Adding a few cents to the price of a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk to help keep our state government in the black is fair. There were no cries of discrimination based on income level when the price of these goods increased with gasoline costs this past summer, there should be no outcry if a tax was added to keep Michigan in business. The tax wouldn't have to be 6%, it could be 1% or 2% and have significant impact.Public schools and the costs of administering them are mentioned in your article. Recently, an assistant superintendent was hired for the Brighton school district at a pay rate of $112,000.00 a year. While I don't discount the responsibility the position holds, or the abilities of the person hired for the job, I have to question the pay rate of school administrators. How about making school administration staff's pay subject to performance factors? Make failing to operate schools within their annual budget directly impact those responsible. It certainly is impacting me as a tax payer and parent, especially as school services are reduced and cut. Since when did bussing become expendable, but an assistance superintendent is not?Prison spending was also mentioned in your article. What factor of the total $1.9 billion was spent on staff overtime? How in a state with a high unemployment rate can our state run institutions justify overtime on a continual basis? I'm quit positive none of the current correctional facility staff would like to see their overtime or premium shift pay benefits lowered, but more people working and paying state taxes is a better long term solution than continually allowing overtime in our state run prisons.
Solutions are not difficult, but they will be unpopular with those directly impacted. However, a fair solution needs to be found that guarantees all residents are contributing toward a financially responsible government. |
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Thomas Murphy (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:08 AM |
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Reduce prison spending. The state spends $1.9 billion a year to warehouse some 125,000 prisoners, parolees and probationers. The state spends another $1.9 billion a year on community colleges and universities educating around 300,000 students. Which is the better investment? Michigan’s incarceration rate is 40 percent higher than in neighboring states. (How many of these offenders could we otherwise peanalize out of prision, and provide safety to the public? How much would we save, and would the more lenient treatment encourage more offenders and add more cost?)
Keep better score. Michigan automatically sends billions in sales taxes straight to school districts and local governments. Instead, we need a statewide scorecard to spur local efficiencies in budgets, (Who would decide the guidelines for the more efficient operation of local government & schools?) staffing, pay and benefits. Money should follow concrete results.
Erase borders. Michigan has 83 counties, more than 1,200 townships, nearly 500 cities and villages with fewer than 10,000 residents, more than 550 public school districts, more than 200 charter schools, and 57 intermediate school districts. Despite cooperative talk, much duplicated bureaucracy remains. School leaders keep calling for large-scale consolidation of business operations. Such ideas could gain traction if state aid were tied to proven efficiencies. (yes)
Critically examine public-sector pay and benefits. Michigan taxpayers are on the hook for $35 billion in unfunded public-sector pension and health care costs. Local government costs in Michigan are hundreds of millions of dollars above those in states without binding arbitration in contract disputes. (Let's change the rules on binding arbitration from focusing on one item, to focusing on the total contract agreement. Is it possible to have a statewide pay and benefits rate?)
Sales tax: Lower the rate and broaden the base. All but 11 states impose sales taxes on more types of services than Michigan. Significant sums could be raised by taxing more items while lowering the rate. (This just gives the allusion that taxpayers will pay less when the fact is they will pay more in the long run because the increased tax on the broader base of services will be passed on to the little guy! If you start making the barber pay $1.00 more per/ hair cut, the cost of the hair cut will go up correspondingly!)
Business tax: Lower the rate and broaden the base. Fewer than 500 Michigan businesses pay more than a third of the entire single-business tax. More than 80,000 businesses pay no SBT. (Same argument as above, the taxpayer will pay more in this type of fast shuffle!)
Graduate the income tax. Michigan could raise the state tax rate for those with highest incomes. (Thats right, let's create more class hating and unfairness in our society! Lets continue to penalize people who succeed! Everyone knows that the higher earners pay MORE than the lower earners already! Isn't it true that the top wage earners pay about 90% of the tax bill in this country while the bottom 50% pay under 5% of the tax burden? ) They, in turn, would likely see little or no actual tax increase because state taxes can be written off federal returns. Thirty-seven states do this now.
(Give me a break, most people who know anything about write offs, know that when you write off say $10,000.00 you DON'T SAVE that $10,000.00, you only save a SMALL portion of it! This is another class hating scheme making the middle & lower income earners think that the bigger wage earners can just deduct everything!)
Consider beverage taxes. Some states tax beer at five times Michigan’s rate of 2 cents per bottle. Others raise significant cash through sales taxes on soda pop. It’s hard to imagine producing businesses leaving Michigan because our taxes on unhealthy beverages are too high. (Another scam, again the businesses DON'T PAY TAXES, they pass it on to the little guy who buys their product!) |
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Jay Eason (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:08 AM |
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Re: the Center's "A New Model Michigan":
Structural changes in spending - agree with all four ideas. If #4 does not include the pay, benefits and staffing levels of elected officials, it shoud.Structural changes in taxation - I do not agree with items 1 and 4. Rather than extend the sales tax to services, increase the current sales tax and exclude necessities such as detergents, shampoos, over the counter drugs, etc A tax on services would hurt those least able to pay. We all need services like haircuts, auto repairs, etcItem 4. The sales tax increase stated above should be adjusted accordingly.The Center is doing the job our well paid state officials, especially our recent do nothing legislature, should be doing. Thanks! |
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John Hargenrader (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:09 AM |
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| I had no idea the beer tax was so low. I presume it is also subject to the normal sales tax, but to tax beer less than my cell phone seems a little odd.Here is a little known secret. In Germany, they mix orange juice and cola, and it is retailed under the name Orangenshaft. I make it all the time, when I stop at 7/11. I buy a coke, and an orange juice. A tax on pop might spur an industry in partially healthy, partially indulgent drinks |
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Bob Kellum (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:10 AM |
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| I am responding to the Center for Michigan newsletter invitation to comment. As a Michigan tax payer since the early seventies I have watched a property tax system that once seemed innocuous, grow into bottom-line driven land use policy determinant. The system gives legitimacy to land uses that generate income and makes the state complicit with special interest in a culture that depends on the generous interpretation of property rights.As a rule, Michigan's land can only be kept sacred if its owner can afford it. Otherwise it is fed into a system that minimizes the importance of Michigan's great holistic natural systems in favor of short-sighted profit schemes. Efforts to rein in our States galloping sprawl are more likely to lead to litigation or more taxes than to meaningful systemic change. In my opinion, a tax system that treats land as a cash cow is a fundamental misuse of state power. Thanks for listening. |
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Henry Woolosen (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:10 AM |
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I recently heard that one BILLION dollars might be spent by presidential candidates in the 2008 election. Add that to the massive amounts that will be spent on local elections as well.
How about a ten percent tax on campaign contributions? Which must to paid to a national trust fund for primary education?
As long as we are going to have to endure (due to free speech protection) a seemingly endless barrage of TV, radio and print ads with little or no meaningful content, why not include a tax on the source of the funding for these obnoxious ads? Then I could at least feel the public is benefiting as I am forced to watch, listen (or throw away) the ads. |
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Ronald A. Dutcher (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:11 AM |
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| I read with complete agreement the news article Midland Daily News dated 1/22/07, about increasing the beer tax. We are both smokers and know the health costs associated with such behavior. My complaint is that multiple states have increased the excise taxes so much as compared to other so-called sin taxes , i.e. alcohol, an therefore feel singled out! I know that manufacturers, hotels, distributors, inn's, taverns have lobbyists working for them, which the politicians respond by inaction. I contend the costs of smoking versus the costs of alcohol abuse are misrepresented. When you consider the losses of drunken driving deaths and injuries, the family upheavals, divorces, etc. I think that a significant part of the budgets of the family independence and friend-of-the-court district court costs, women's shelter houses, etc. can be attributed to alcohol, perhaps 40-50% of each. |
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Kim Rowell (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:11 AM |
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| I believe that all alcohol should have their taxes raised. Tobacco has been raised several times to offset health insurance. Several people die every year also do to alcohol use. Not only health related issues but in alcohol- traffic related accidents. Also..... how many people have been killed by a "smoker” as opposed to a "drunk driver”. Something you may want to run past the policy makers..... |
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Mike a Michigan Beer Drinker (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:11 AM |
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| Think of something else.Us beer drinkers also play the crappy Club Keno and if you get the tax on beer raised I will never play again so there.Just negated your beer tax. And then some. |
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Martha Arney (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:11 AM |
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| Thank you for the opportunity to add my thoughts to this.After determining far too much money is spent on Michigan's prisons it is my opinion that the state needs to rethink the penalties for some crimes. Currently over 1.6 billion per year is spent on prisons-this is ridiculous. Some prisoners should probably never get out such as murderers and other people who commit violent crimes. But why should taxpayers in Michigan foot the bill to incarcerate a person who is sent to prison for possessing a small amount of marijuana? Drug dealers who are selling crack cocaine, meth and heroin should have stronger punishments and fines. Prison terms and punishment need to be looked at by our law makers and adjusted. Why in the world are tax payers having to foot the bill to educate criminals? The state doesn't have the funds to properly educate honest people-yet tax payers are footing the bill to educate people in prisons. This just doesn't make sense to me.The state of Michigan is in serious trouble and is going to continue to have problems for some time. The deficits being faced are not going to go away. Benefits of state employees are out of control and state employees need to shoulder the burden of paying for some of their benefits.I don't think increasing taxes is the answer, if this is done I think the state could continue to lose people to other states. The biggest problem I see is the lack of enforcement for laws that are already in place, such as collecting and paying sales tax. There are places where a lack of sales tax collection and not paying the state is prevalent and this is not right, but the state does not have the man power to monitor it. Instead it has the highest population in prisons and needs to employ more people there.
Governor Granholm has some serious decisions to make. I question if she can make them and when she says that cuts have been made I don't feel they have been made in the right places. I honestly think the state still has far too much fat in some sectors that needs to be cut. I also think if all the property taxes, sales taxes and income tax were delivered to the local communities to be distributed the state would run better. I think people can manage their own local sectors with county distributions better than the state is doing. Doing this would get rid of a great number of state jobs and create jobs locally. I also think it is a fairer distribution of tax money. There is plenty of money out there, it is just not being used wisely. Almost every community in this state is suffering due to poor state monetary management and it looks as though this will continue. Keeping tax money locally would determine what communities can spend on schools, roads and infrastructure. Local governments would determine how much they should raise taxes if they can't meet their budgets. I think this could work if you could get everyone to agree on it.
The obvious problem would be that communities with better employment and higher property tax values would be the winners in this scenario. But why shouldn't they be? Why should good communities have to pay the price for bad ones? What we don't know is how good could all our counties and cities become if the state were eliminated. Do we need to support all of these malfunctioning state departments at the cost of sacrificing our communities and local schools. Obviously the state has a job to do and we have a responsibility to fund it. There are taxes collected from utility companies, gasoline sales and other places that would fund a much more limited state government.
The system is broken and isn't working, that is why all these study groups are being formed and people are looking for some new solutions. It needs a dramatic change and I would like to see this taken under consideration. Put the burden on the local governments, I think they can meet the challenge if given the opportunity. But the local governments are suffering because of the poor state management and cutting of funds to them. It is truly sad that everyone has to suffer because the state can't manage properly. I think Michigan would thrive by having a small state government and larger local governments. |
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John Gisler (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:12 AM |
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| In recent releases, the Center has mentioned the tax plans presented at the Lansing townhall meeting. The plans of the Detroit, Grand Rapids and state Chambers of Commerce are all discussed. However, the FairTax (a consumption-based tax) is NOT covered. I believe this is a serious omission and weakens the Center's overall tax message.The FairTax was presented late in the day in Lansing and possibly this position in the day's agenda is the reason the Center overlooks it. Maybe someone from the Center should speak with Fulton Sheen, who is a strong advocate of the FairTax, to get up to speed.Keep fighting the good fight! |
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B. Andersen (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:12 AM |
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| Michigan is my home, my land, the place to be treasured by friends and neighbors and people yet to come. How could I resent doing my fair share to maintain it and improve it?If we refused to pay our dues to the condominium association or the civic club or the country club of our choice we would be ousted soon enough. Yet we assume we are privileged to utilize any and all of the services and amenities that Michigan provides us while finagling to pay as little as possible in the way of "dues". It seems to be the richest among us who are best able to employ all sorts of clever tax breaks and clever accounting tricks to avoid any burden of support for our state.To be a responsible citizen is to invest in our common wealth, to pay our fair taxes willingly, not as a burden, grudgingly.We should have little stickers like the ones that say "I VOTED!"
Maybe bumper stickers .....
A proud tax payer for Michigan
Keep Michigan fair --- pay your fair taxes |
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Neil Karl (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:12 AM |
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Nowhere is it discussed about fixing the Michigan economy. Everything is about fixing the next budget crisis. The governor has been doing this for
4 years. This is a tax death spiral. More taxes, more cuts, more revenue losses, in a never ending slide.On yes, the governor's solution these past four years was to use the MEDC and the 21st Century fund to target specific industries, to attract them to Michigan with tax abatements. One of these targets was the Life Sciences corridor. Is this economic recovery plan a failure?Well, when tough times came, Pfizer is laying off 30 % of the Michigan workforce, but closing all the research labs. It is keeping the manufacturing plant in Kalamazoo, the former Upjohn plant. The other 70 % of the employees of the labs are being relocated. So, when the layoffs came, why did Pfizer choose to close its labs in Michigan? Looking at the Pfizer web site, it has facilities in the states: New York, New Jersey, Michigan, Missouri, and California. It is interesting to note that two states have Zero Business Personal Property Tax: New York and New Jersey.
The labs are highly computerized with high tech lab equipment. Lots of Property Tax there. 50 % abatements for 12 years cannot compete with Zero Business Personal Property Tax starting now, through the 12 years.When are the legislators going to address Michigan business taxes being competitive with the 15 states in the Tax Friendly Business Belt? The business taxes in these states feature: Zero Business Personal Property Tax and generally a corporate profits tax. Of these 15 states, Illinois has a solution for replacing the Business Personal Property Tax, a 2.5 % replacement tax. |
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Robert H. Bennethum (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:13 AM |
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I saw some good ideas on the web site. I also saw some old fashioned baffle them with bull as well.
Everyone has simple rules they need to live by.1) Don't spend more than you have.
2) If you can't afford it you don't buy it on credit. ( Within reason.
What I am referring to is using a home equity loan to go on vacation.)
3) Let the punishment fit the crime. Did Tim Taylor deserve what he got?
I don't think so. Why is Michigan such an angry state?I like the beer and soda tax ideas. Quick and not too regressive.When it comes to public spending on public servants, especially legislators I am reminded of someone's description of where the word politics came from.
Poli, from Latin meaning the masses and of course we all know what a tic does. |
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William Pelak (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:13 AM |
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| I have lived here all my life and have never witnessed such a rapid downward spiral in our confidence of leadership with regard to Jennifer Granholm and her band of do-nothings. The great speech to be given this Tuesday will no doubt be up beat and rosy with just a hint of disgust towards all those nay Sayers who spout negative words and bad karma. We will not hear any mention of raising taxes or fee's, that will come later from other voices, so as not to lay blame at the feet of our governor.The defining moment for Michigan is here and 180,000 government jobs will lament the fact that real jobs that actually produced something will have left, and there is no one to tax anymore. Income tax only works when there is actual income from creating stuff that can be sold. State workers create no value, just service, so in taxing services I suppose the state will just tax itself? Good luck and may the farce be with you? |
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Chuck Fellows (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:13 AM |
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| Dear Center for Michigan:There are two themes present in the dialogue regarding Michigan’s fiscal difficulties, cost and health care. The states fastest growing and largest expenditures, corrections, human services and education are all significantly impacted by health care costs.What to do has focused on the actions customers of health care services take such as cost shifting through higher out of pocket insurance premiums, wellness programs, aggregated purchasing actions, to the extreme of dropping insurance coverage altogether.Our insurance and health care providers appear helpless to reverse the ever upward trend in costs driving business and economic development out of the state. Since Michigan is in fact a middle of the road tax burden state, health care costs, which are higher here than anywhere else, are no doubt the largest impediment to economic improvement.
It is evident that the people of Michigan, through their elected representatives, must act to resolve this problem and reverse the ever upward cost trajectory. And there are lots of actions that can be taken. For example:
1. Encourage all employers that provide a health care ‘benefit’ (a euphemism for untaxed income) to convert this expenditure to direct compensation for their employees. This will remove the entitlement mentality that exists within both the insurance and health care provider industries. They will be required to compete for each consumer’s dollar.
And, depending on how this is handled in Lansing, it could be the revenue solution for the current general fund shortfall.
2. Insist through tax and regulatory policy that the insurance and health care industries serving Michigan move immediately to standard record formats and consumer owned electronic medical records (smart cards). Our global competitors have been at this stage in technology for some time now.
There are certainly many more and better ideas for action in the public realm. And it is going to require action by the public to correct the inability of the private sector to act. |
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David A. Moore, CPA (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:14 AM |
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I saw Mr. Power on Channel 12 in Flint being interviewed by Michael Thorp and must admit
I was quite intrigued by some of his ideas.I will freely admit that I am considerably right of moderate on most issues but admire your attempt at major reforms in state government.You probably don't care what I think, but your email address was listed so I'll take this opportunity to throw my two cents worth in and you can do with it what you please.First, I must admit that the statement "State taxpayers spend three times as much on warehousing individual felons as we do on educating individual college students" is a real attention getter. You're comparing apples to oranges, if not apples to zebras, but it does sound impressive. I live in Genesee County and given our crime rate I certainly couldn't support lowering corrections spending or population. I might suggest that we look at the amount we spend on higher education and how many of those graduates leave Michigan with our hard arned dollars. Perhaps instead of helping the institutions we could help the individuals who make a commitment to stay here and pay taxes. On another angle, do we really need to subsidize the universities themselves? U of M has a $5 billion budget. That makes the state portion less than 7% of the total. If (and I'm not suggesting this) we totally eliminated our "contribution" to the universities, how bad could the effect be?
Second, I'm all for allocating K-12 money based on performance. I'm also a big supporter of school vouchers (which I think would accomplish the same goal). Just as one example...I have a "little brother" whose father is in prison, mother is on welfare...she is never going to be able to afford to move into a district with decent schools so she is stuck in Flint, probably one of the worst districts in the state. Good luck getting any change in K-12 funding (or accountability) past the teacher unions.
Next we move on to "Consolidation and service sharing." Again a very noble and worthwhile cause (how many different fire departments are there in the state?) Like the unions, the local units are not going to give up their teet without a major battle.
"Public sector pay and benefits" See above. We have engrained the entitlement mentality which will devour us if left unchecked.
I've already taken too much of your time (if you're still actually reading this) and will (in typical conservative fashion) lump all the tax proposals together and say that invariably the government will spend what we give them. And as evidenced by your above proposals, not necessarily wisely.
Have a great day! |
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Tony Infante (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:14 AM |
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| Some of these ideas seem far more practical than the others.Implementing a graduated state income tax is essential. Presenters at the Center for Michigan event in Ann Arbor provided a record of the increasing gap in the percentage allowed under the Headlee Amendment. Mark Murray, The Engler Director of OMB and an architect of cuts in the state income tax has gone on record pointing out this fact and arguing that it is hurting the ability of the state to properly invest in higher education.Increasing the beer tax is a no brainer. What better source exists for raising significant revenue without harming an important component of our economy? What's the barrier? Our ineffective state legislature listening to a relatively small but well organized business lobby. Not long ago Jennifer Dixon reported in the Detroit News a well documented overview of the institutional efficiency with which the Beer and Wine Wholesalers Association has kept the Michigan legislature at the beck and call of their 70+ member businesses.Reducing expenditure on corrections and the percentage of population incarcerated is also a no brainer. If The Mackinac Center has good ideas where are the facts and figures? Why not work with and champion the ideas of these libertarians if it will serve the public good?
Accelerating the pace of consolidating local governments and school districts is also essential. Modifying Michigan's antiquated maintenance of home rule is probably the most important structural modification needed in terms of sustainability. The Center should generate more compelling data or analysis of existing data on the huge costs and future liabilities of so many local units of government. If the Next Michigan isn't inventing and pursuing leaner, meaner and more efficient institutions of public administration we'll never get our of the current morass.
Benchmarking the performance of local governments and evaluating the pay of public employees seems like a much stickier wicket. This also seems like the kind of pie-in-the sky group think idea that percolates from a cabal of elites that earn their pay as economic development consultants and lobbyists for hire. Who will pay for these studies? Who's bright enough and impartial enough to do the job? How long would it take? Holding up the interest in performance benchmarking in Kalamazoo is an impoverished argument for creating metrics to evaluate the performance of public administration across the state. In Kzoo, leaders stepped up with both an innovative idea and the resources to execute it. Providing leaders in other Michigan cities with information on the how, why and benefit of this model might be more judicious than attempting to scale its virtue across the state. Measuring accountability is great to test the effectiveness of a new resource allocation system but how do you apply this to Michigan before you've implemented significant structural modification?
Why aren't any of these big problems being fixed when we've had good information on so many for so long? The barrier is the existing power structure in Lansing. Because our state government isn't working and hasn't fixed big problems in a long time the notion that any good idea will be pursued via an act of the state legislature seems a bit optimistic if not ludicrous -there is a well-entrenched and positioned axis of power to thwart any of the good ideas for structural modification.
You've left out good ideas like repealing term limits and a constitutional convention. Who has the will to restructure Michigan? The elites that have sat secure and ineffective while the security of an ever increasing percentage of the taxpayers have been made less secure? Avoiding the promotion of a constitutional convention out of fear that extremists will participate isn't a good enough reason to exclude a broad section of the public in the restructuring process. The voice and multitude of traditional public policy actors has grown both louder and more stagnant as Michigan's big problems get bigger -good or great ideas won't in and of themselves make the existing institutions more effective. The self-interest of the emerging class of exceptional privilege in Michigan -those drawing a paycheck, pension and/or covered by public financed health care is too well served by the status quo to be depended on to institute the scope of broad reform we need. |
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Chuck Fellows (guest) |
| 02/09/2007 11:15 AM |
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| Dear Center for Michigan:Thank you for publishing “A New Model for Michigan.” I will keep my comments as brief as possible.“A Michigan Scorecard – Adopt Performance Metrics” is an item of great concern. I would be willing to volunteer to serve with this group.That which matters most can be measured least, to paraphrase Ed Deming. The metrics must be chosen carefully and the purpose of the metric very, very carefully defined. In addition, the metric must be reviewed continually, for alignment with purpose since as a process changes the context of the measurement and information that the metric contains also changes. Data without context is meaningless!
It is critically important that to understand that meaningful measurement takes place over time. Any metric gathered shall be subject to the discipline of control charting as defined by Shewhart.
Example: In the logistics business transit time between origin/destination pairs has reigned supreme as a measure of performance. For forty years or more businesses and governments have used this metric to determine a carrier’s performance. Wrong! The three components of transit, origin, transit and destination, must be measured in terms of the amount of time a conveyance “dwells within each. The absolute value of transit time is meaningless without the breakdown into the three major components of transit and that “dwell” time is assessed through the use of control charts, not individual points of elapsed time.
“Accountability aimed at maximum efficiency” is a desired outcome that has the cart before the horse. Effective delivery of a product or service provides the efficiency. To focus exclusively on “efficiency” misleads the observer and distorts outcomes. Please note that efficiency can be at its maximum when activity is zero. (Laws of Motion).
I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to comment. |
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Have thoughts? Let us know right here!
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